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	<title>Comments on: Death and Desensitization</title>
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	<description>building public awareness of left-wing market anarchism</description>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://c4ss.org/content/3539/comment-page-1#comment-4963</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aaron]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Aug 2010 23:37:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://c4ss.org/?p=3539#comment-4963</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pat - Here are a couple of links.

http://mises.org/journals/scholar/Hoppe.pdf    National Defense starts on page 14.

http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf    Click on National Defense in Part III  of the Contents.

Here is a good list of links that cover a lot of Anarchis subjects.  I like the stuff from Lysander Spooner stuff.

http://praxeology.net/anarcres.htm]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat &#8211; Here are a couple of links.</p>
<p><a href="http://mises.org/journals/scholar/Hoppe.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://mises.org/journals/scholar/Hoppe.pdf</a>    National Defense starts on page 14.</p>
<p><a href="http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf</a>    Click on National Defense in Part III  of the Contents.</p>
<p>Here is a good list of links that cover a lot of Anarchis subjects.  I like the stuff from Lysander Spooner stuff.</p>
<p><a href="http://praxeology.net/anarcres.htm" rel="nofollow">http://praxeology.net/anarcres.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Pat</title>
		<link>http://c4ss.org/content/3539/comment-page-1#comment-5110</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Aug 2010 23:12:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://c4ss.org/?p=3539#comment-5110</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Aaron, I appreciate the links. Hoppe&#039;s and Friedman&#039;s articles were both thought provoking but (IMO), neither offered a plausible vision of defense in the absence of a state. Ultimately, though, I guess it&#039;s futile to try and imagine a concentrated, standing defense force of any sort (state or private) that would not be subject to corruption and abuse. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Aaron, I appreciate the links. Hoppe&#39;s and Friedman&#39;s articles were both thought provoking but (IMO), neither offered a plausible vision of defense in the absence of a state. Ultimately, though, I guess it&#39;s futile to try and imagine a concentrated, standing defense force of any sort (state or private) that would not be subject to corruption and abuse. </p>
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		<title>By: P.M.Lawrence</title>
		<link>http://c4ss.org/content/3539/comment-page-1#comment-4879</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[P.M.Lawrence]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://c4ss.org/?p=3539#comment-4879</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Political leaders appear to incorrectly believe violence can be used to achieve peace and stability. That’s a very flawed approach that, historically, has not worked at all.&quot;

Historically, it has sometimes worked very well indeed, e.g. for the Ottomans for centuries.

&quot;We can say with confidence that practical solutions would arise in an anarchistic society, though, because there would be no tax funding to shift the costs of warfare onto people who don’t make the decision to go to war&quot;.

No, for the simple reason that the old &quot;raid and trade&quot; approach would work, under which people do whichever turns out more convenient. It doesn&#039;t take taxes to shift costs that way.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Political leaders appear to incorrectly believe violence can be used to achieve peace and stability. That’s a very flawed approach that, historically, has not worked at all.&#8221;</p>
<p>Historically, it has sometimes worked very well indeed, e.g. for the Ottomans for centuries.</p>
<p>&#8220;We can say with confidence that practical solutions would arise in an anarchistic society, though, because there would be no tax funding to shift the costs of warfare onto people who don’t make the decision to go to war&#8221;.</p>
<p>No, for the simple reason that the old &#8220;raid and trade&#8221; approach would work, under which people do whichever turns out more convenient. It doesn&#8217;t take taxes to shift costs that way.</p>
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		<title>By: Pat</title>
		<link>http://c4ss.org/content/3539/comment-page-1#comment-4926</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Aug 2010 06:34:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://c4ss.org/?p=3539#comment-4926</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Aaron - when I said &#8220;statists (and other hierarchists) are great at organizing masses of human tools into focused, destructive might,&#8221; - believe me, it was not a statement of admiration! I&#039;ve been reading a great deal on anarchism and have not seen the issue of mutual defense deeply addressed. Do you have any sources you could suggest? To me, it&#039;s part of the conundrum we currently live in -- how do you oppose massive, organized power without &quot;becoming the enemy?&quot; ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaron &#8211; when I said &ldquo;statists (and other hierarchists) are great at organizing masses of human tools into focused, destructive might,&rdquo; &#8211; believe me, it was not a statement of admiration! I&#39;ve been reading a great deal on anarchism and have not seen the issue of mutual defense deeply addressed. Do you have any sources you could suggest? To me, it&#39;s part of the conundrum we currently live in &#8212; how do you oppose massive, organized power without &quot;becoming the enemy?&quot; </p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://c4ss.org/content/3539/comment-page-1#comment-4867</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aaron]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Aug 2010 02:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://c4ss.org/?p=3539#comment-4867</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pat - You say &quot;statists (and other hierarchists) are great at organizing masses of human tools into focused, destructive might.&quot; like it is a good thing.  I don&#039;t want anyone to have focused destructive might.  It is not necessary for defense either.  The worst case scenario is that an Anarchist society coexists alongside a State and the State decides to invade the Anarchist society.  The State may have the might to win the initial engagements, but they would never be able to maintain control over an area where most of the population does not recognize their right to exist.   
 
The current formula for conquest is to invade an area then set up a puppet government made up of local people that are controlled by the invader.  Most of the population will follow this new government because following government is all they know.   
 
Even in today&#039;s world this type of conquest is not working well.  Look at the situations in Iraq and Afghanistan.  A very small minority of the population is opposing the puppet governments and their masters and this is causing huge problems for the invaders.  Now think of what it would be like if most of the population did not believe in any government.  Add to this the fact that a large portion of the population would most likely be armed in a stateless society.  You can see that they would be nearly impossible to conquer a stateless society of any considerable size.   
 
These dynamics were played out historically in the case of the English conquest of Ireland.  The Irish people did not live in the same type of feudal society that English and most of the rest of Europe did.  They had leaders that were elected from certain families that were their combat and spiritual leaders, but individuals were free to change leaders without moving and often did.  When the English invaded with vastly superior numbers and technology they won the battles, but found that they could not rule the people.  The English would defeat a local leader and have them sign a treaty. They would then install one of their own noblemen as the new Lord, but as soon as enough soldiers marched off to fight in a new area the locals would rise up and over through the new government and cause the English to have to start all over again.  This went on for close to 400 years.  With modern weapons, technology and media coverage, that type of long drawn out conquest could not be sustained. 
 
As far as &quot;Anarchists will need to think through some larger scale mutual interest issues&quot;,   I assure you that just about every large and small scale issue has been thought through.  Anarchism has been around for a long time and countless books, articles and web postings and debates have been written.  I am not saying all anarchists agree, but there has been a lot of thought put into it.  I am sure if you do little research you will find plenty to read about. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat &#8211; You say &quot;statists (and other hierarchists) are great at organizing masses of human tools into focused, destructive might.&quot; like it is a good thing.  I don&#39;t want anyone to have focused destructive might.  It is not necessary for defense either.  The worst case scenario is that an Anarchist society coexists alongside a State and the State decides to invade the Anarchist society.  The State may have the might to win the initial engagements, but they would never be able to maintain control over an area where most of the population does not recognize their right to exist.  </p>
<p>The current formula for conquest is to invade an area then set up a puppet government made up of local people that are controlled by the invader.  Most of the population will follow this new government because following government is all they know.  </p>
<p>Even in today&#39;s world this type of conquest is not working well.  Look at the situations in Iraq and Afghanistan.  A very small minority of the population is opposing the puppet governments and their masters and this is causing huge problems for the invaders.  Now think of what it would be like if most of the population did not believe in any government.  Add to this the fact that a large portion of the population would most likely be armed in a stateless society.  You can see that they would be nearly impossible to conquer a stateless society of any considerable size.  </p>
<p>These dynamics were played out historically in the case of the English conquest of Ireland.  The Irish people did not live in the same type of feudal society that English and most of the rest of Europe did.  They had leaders that were elected from certain families that were their combat and spiritual leaders, but individuals were free to change leaders without moving and often did.  When the English invaded with vastly superior numbers and technology they won the battles, but found that they could not rule the people.  The English would defeat a local leader and have them sign a treaty. They would then install one of their own noblemen as the new Lord, but as soon as enough soldiers marched off to fight in a new area the locals would rise up and over through the new government and cause the English to have to start all over again.  This went on for close to 400 years.  With modern weapons, technology and media coverage, that type of long drawn out conquest could not be sustained.</p>
<p>As far as &quot;Anarchists will need to think through some larger scale mutual interest issues&quot;,   I assure you that just about every large and small scale issue has been thought through.  Anarchism has been around for a long time and countless books, articles and web postings and debates have been written.  I am not saying all anarchists agree, but there has been a lot of thought put into it.  I am sure if you do little research you will find plenty to read about. </p>
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		<title>By: Pat</title>
		<link>http://c4ss.org/content/3539/comment-page-1#comment-4799</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:20:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://c4ss.org/?p=3539#comment-4799</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Aaron - thanks. I guess a concern is that, despite their many and myriad failings, statists (and other hierarchists) are great at organizing masses of human tools into focused, destructive might. Anarchists will need to think through some larger scale mutual interest issues. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Aaron &#8211; thanks. I guess a concern is that, despite their many and myriad failings, statists (and other hierarchists) are great at organizing masses of human tools into focused, destructive might. Anarchists will need to think through some larger scale mutual interest issues. </p>
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		<title>By: Pat</title>
		<link>http://c4ss.org/content/3539/comment-page-1#comment-4747</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:05:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://c4ss.org/?p=3539#comment-4747</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great post! Being relatively new to anarchism, one question I have been pondering is the response to military violence in an anarchistic society. While the roots (and thus the incidence) of violence would certainly be diminished, how would independent communities deal with organized aggression from those who didn&#039;t share a non-hierarchical ethic? Obviously, if one&#039;s own community were attacked, its own militia/defense group would respond accordingly. But what if your neighboring community was attacked? Or a community 100 miles away, or one across the country? What if violence were being committed against individuals within a community. Would there be any time that mass intervention would be called for? Any non-local, unaccoutable &quot;security&quot; apparatus is, by its nature, prone to tyranny. But how could a peaceful anarchistic society defend itself in a timely and sufficiently powerful manner to avoid being picked off piecemeal by an organized aggressive force?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post! Being relatively new to anarchism, one question I have been pondering is the response to military violence in an anarchistic society. While the roots (and thus the incidence) of violence would certainly be diminished, how would independent communities deal with organized aggression from those who didn&#8217;t share a non-hierarchical ethic? Obviously, if one&#8217;s own community were attacked, its own militia/defense group would respond accordingly. But what if your neighboring community was attacked? Or a community 100 miles away, or one across the country? What if violence were being committed against individuals within a community. Would there be any time that mass intervention would be called for? Any non-local, unaccoutable &#8220;security&#8221; apparatus is, by its nature, prone to tyranny. But how could a peaceful anarchistic society defend itself in a timely and sufficiently powerful manner to avoid being picked off piecemeal by an organized aggressive force?</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://c4ss.org/content/3539/comment-page-1#comment-4793</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aaron]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:31:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://c4ss.org/?p=3539#comment-4793</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pat, 
 
In a stateless society you would be free to intervene in a conflict or not as you choose.  This could be personally by choosing to fight or through financial support.  You could even hire someone to go and fight if you wanted and had the means.  Distance has nothing to do with it.  It would not matter if the people being attacked were next door or half way around the world.  The idea that the people in an arbitrary geographic region are tied to each other more than any other people is a statist one.   
 
In today&#8217;s society you are forced to support whatever military actions your government endorses and forbidden from supporting the ones that they don&#039;t.  It is all about freedom or the lack of it. 
 
Hope this helps. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat,</p>
<p>In a stateless society you would be free to intervene in a conflict or not as you choose.  This could be personally by choosing to fight or through financial support.  You could even hire someone to go and fight if you wanted and had the means.  Distance has nothing to do with it.  It would not matter if the people being attacked were next door or half way around the world.  The idea that the people in an arbitrary geographic region are tied to each other more than any other people is a statist one.  </p>
<p>In today&rsquo;s society you are forced to support whatever military actions your government endorses and forbidden from supporting the ones that they don&#39;t.  It is all about freedom or the lack of it.</p>
<p>Hope this helps. </p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Carson</title>
		<link>http://c4ss.org/content/3539/comment-page-1#comment-4745</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Carson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 16:52:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://c4ss.org/?p=3539#comment-4745</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, Stacy.  I may use this for material myself.  It&#039;s funny that Manning deserves death because his leak allegedly lead to death.  But Bush and Obama don&#039;t deserve capital punishment for sending people to fight in a war in which thousands have died.  Once again, the state is held to a different standard. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Stacy.  I may use this for material myself.  It&#39;s funny that Manning deserves death because his leak allegedly lead to death.  But Bush and Obama don&#39;t deserve capital punishment for sending people to fight in a war in which thousands have died.  Once again, the state is held to a different standard. </p>
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